Curse

Midnight08 · Sep 11, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by anarion

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... i'd say you're way off the mark there

bad idea? firstly GW only allows 8 skills on a skillbar and the game is balanced for 8v8 play

1v1 and 2v2, you might as well /roll

sometimes the game is about FUN... i find 1v1 fun... 2v2 is also fun (use scrimmages for this now)... its a matter of options... just because it wouldnt be the most competative thing, it would be nice for a fun change of pace.

Chicken Ftw · Sep 11, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight08

sometimes the game is about FUN... i find 1v1 fun... 2v2 is also fun (use scrimmages for this now)... its a matter of options... just because it wouldnt be the most competative thing, it would be nice for a fun change of pace.

Don't know how 1v1/2v2'd be fun. It'd be a frustrating rock paper scissors imo.

Please don't listen to this suggestion Anet. PvErs' suggestions for fixing PvP are always bad. 6 man HA, anyone? Oh, and let's spend time and resources making Hero Battles that no real PvPer gives a shit about or wants, instead of balancing out the skills that effect everyone! Woot.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 11, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Please don't listen to this suggestion Anet.

The majority of posts in this thread I'd take with a few grains of salt.

zwei2stein · Sep 11, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

UUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAAAAAAXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

No PVE players with brains in head would ever mind UAX for PvPers.

It's like .... you would have ot be extra stupid to think that devalues your achievements or something.

Graphik Desine · Sep 11, 2007, 06:35 AM // 06:35

PvP might have "died" according to those who lost the desire to keep doing the same thing over and over. but pvp might not have died for others. this type of general statement reflects the person's view, not necessarily the views of others.
same goes for pve. there are always going to be people who hate doing this or that, but there are so many types of things to do in this game that you can always balance by doing random pve stuff if you are a gvg/ha-er and vice versa--do pvp if all you do is pve all day long. if people don't like doing specific things in the game, why do them? dont punish yourself :P

there are some solutions to these problems that some posters here got close to pointing out, but never quite hit them on the head; they merely started introducing topics they feel are "problems" with no ways to get around all of it! so i will list a few suggestions as a guide to strengthen your ha/gvg/pvp experience:

for those who are concerned about:

Topic: not being able to "beat" specific builds or the guilds running these builds:

Solution: examine their builds in observe mode. tear apart what might devastate them the most and go from there. try coming up with builds on your own that could potentially be pure ownage against builds such as "spiritway" or "legoway." once you have found the weak spot, eat them alive. they won't see it coming. give those who play "overpowered builds" a run for their money instead of an easy roll.

this is one great way to "get legowayers to stop legowaying." if what seems a random build to them that beat them, they will be less likely to play it each time they get rolled by "randomway."

which brings me to yet another topic, with yet another solution.

T: "people keep running the same garbage in HA and gvg."

S: do not feed to the fire and run exactly what the rest of the ha/gvg population is running. this is why we see so much of this stuff, because people are, indeed, human--after all--and when monkey sees, monkey does.
nobody should feel the need to run legoway if they want to get in a pug in ha. instead, run test builds. they may fail, but coordination IS key, and party members just need to listen to instructions and do what their characters were built to do.

i, for one, quit ha a few months ago because all anyone (my friends and even pugs) ever wanted to run was ritspike (and eventually legoway when the ritspikers learned legoway rolled rits), and frankly, i was tired of it all--seeing the same 2-3 builds. i was an HAer for fun, not for fame (even though i wanted my tiger), but yet it became fame farming to the rest of my HA friends.
i felt i did not need to play junky builds just to make friends happy (yes, i felt i was hurting myself to help others--doing things i did not agree with). and that is why PvE rocks my world right now. id rather pve than get called to play cookie cutter garbage that the group leader snagged off a build he or she found on observe mode.
so, to make an example of what i stated about feeding to the fire and keep on playing cookie cutter builds, it is probably better to play it once or twice, for giggles, then go on and refine skills elsewhere, where players will get more out of their game. like monking ^^

moral to the story and ultimate solution: if i ever start up in HA again, i would rather start from scratch and build builds with myself being the leader. with this in mind, i would also rather see people start from scratch as they used to, and see what becomes of builds.

i might be one of the very few who feels this way, but sometimes it is nice to see how well other builds can do by messing around with skills.

Spazzer · Sep 11, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANTICANCER

uhm pvp sux and skill balances that favor pvp screw up many pve peoples

Are you being serious or sarcastic? I want to believe it's the latter.

kade · Sep 11, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Post #46 hit the mark. Nice analysis Yichi.

Vanquisher · Sep 11, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

You have that completely backwords. Most of the stuff was done to protect PvP. The PvErs are the ones that suffered the brute of the skill balances because PvPers abused the hell out of skills.

Maybe instead of wanting everything to be gifted to you on a platter, you could, you know, try to actually work a little bit, for things? OH NO SOUL REAPING NERF! Do you not understand how incredibly broken SR was as a primary attribute when coupled with Spirits, or are you just being ignorant because you feel so utterly incompetant without a way to abuse things?

PS. UAX
PPS. Reconnects

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I see this quote quite often from various long time posters.

Would someone please elaborate as I see ANet "balancing" quite often.

What is it that PvP players would like to see balanced that would revive PvP? Can someone clarify please?
I have an idea of what your are referring too but I'd like a hardcore PvP player to fully explain it with examples. As far as I can tell as long as there is a counter the game is balanced, please explain how PvP can be more balanced that would draw crowds of new players to PvP?

Are there too many skills & classes allowed for PvP? too few? How is PvP unbalanced?

Balance updates every 3~ months is not often enough. When things are ruining the entire foundation of high level PvP, they need to be fixed instantly, or the detrimental effect they will have will be servere. Just look at shortly after Nightfall was released. You had Paragons giving all Party members/NPC's like a bajillion armor, as well as a load of energy. You also had Avatar of Grenth Dervishes running around stopping any form of Prot.

Now you're seeing Melandru's, which has been there since I uninstalled, and still barely anything been done. Same with Aegis, pretty much all Paragon shouts/chants (note: this includes Shield's Up / Watch Yourself, even though they're Warrior skills). Ward Melee - all these passively defensive skills, where the balance cost on them is far too low for their effect, and you can break such things by taking multiple copies, or throwing say, Ward, on an MoR Mesmer requiring even less of a spec than on an Elementalist, but the ability to permanently maintain it, which an Ele doesn't carry, plus the fact it's fast cast so almost impossible to interrupt without guess work.
Then you get things which are nuts in Tombs and Arenas, but aren't touched either. An time any skill gets out of line it nees to be dealt with. The problem is, it isn't. Skills get buffed to see more use, become a problem, and are left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphik Desine

Solution: examine their builds in observe mode. tear apart what might devastate them the most and go from there. try coming up with builds on your own that could potentially be pure ownage against builds such as "spiritway" or "legoway." once you have found the weak spot, eat them alive. they won't see it coming. give those who play "overpowered builds" a run for their money instead of an easy roll.

Build Wars?

Also - 8 million fun seasons / infrequent skill balances / not following through on promises / useless ladder / poor AT system / no real rewards / imbalanced maps / imbalanced mechanics / Blockagons / Ritualists / Shadowstepping / Dervishes / ... the list goes on for a bit longer, but you get the idea...

Maika Boila Radovu · Sep 11, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

I am a casual player. I don't invest hours per day or sometimes even hours per week on this game. I have however had the oppurtunity and privledge to play fairly competitively in both HA and GvG. For all purposes I am the type of player this game was originally marketed too and I feel as a casual player that I can offer a unique perspective on what went wrong. It's something that has been bothering me for a long time.

When Prophecies first came out PvP reminded me of Chess. In my opinion it was an 8 man team chess game and I loved it. Not only did it have excellent game play but it also had an amazing training environment. A person could start off playing PvE to familarize himself with the skill's, the skill names, and the skill icons. You then graduated to some training arenas by way of Random arena's, then Team arena's, and finally Tomb of the Priemieval Kings. All gave you an oppurtunity to learn different things and ease in slowly to the higher end PvP. When ready you could move into the Cadillac of PvP, the Guild vs Guild battles.

Chess was reformed to it's modern day rules about 1475, and it has seen very little changes in 500 years while remaining one of the most popular games. It is my opinion that Guild Wars PvP was designed to resemble a team based game of Chess and indeed it was at it's greatest when it resembled Chess the most.

The greatest thing about Chess is how the game is almost perfectly balanced (White has a slight advantage due to always having the first move) while employing several types of pieces, each with it's own movement and strength's.

The first chapter of Guild Wars enjoyed a similar balance while in a team based game. In my opinion the 2 biggest mistakes to the detriment of the game were the loss of this balance and the loss of the requirement to work as a team.

How were these mistakes made and if it's possible to fix them how do we do it?

In my opinion the balance of the game was irreparably damaged due to a flawed business model. The business model was flawed in several key ways. The first being the release of new chapters. To make the new Chapter attractive to a larger base of people the new profession and skills have to be stronger and better than the ones that preceeded. Finacially this makes the most sense, however in terms of maintaining a top tier game it wreak's all kinds of havoc. Not only did we lose balance between professions and skills we also lost balance in the training functions of the different aspects of the game. Namely PvE,Random Arena's, etc. I ascribe this imbalance to the designers no longer willing to follow their vision and focus for the game, but rather trying very hard to please everyone who took the time to complain. In my opinion the constant appeasement of random complainers has created a game that is bulky, confusing, and complicated. A far cry from the original clean streamlined game. Some of the first changes I can remeber were the introduction of traders for runes and celestial sigils. Neither of them were good changes.

Where once we enjoyed a seamless continuity from what I consider the training area's to the real focus of the game namely GvG, we now have a huge spiralling mess where players get bogged down with useless endeavors that are no longer about fun but more about accomplishments. These useless ideas would include such things as stockpiling gold/wealth, unlocking myriads of skills some of which have the same description but different icons and names, updating hero's and hero armors, and title after title. Do we really need a Lucky and Unlucky title?

Another one of the big mistakes was the introduction of heroes and I mean it was a mistake for all areas of the game. Once you saw groups of real people learning to work as a team in PvE as training including full guild groups. Now it's a rare occurence as people play the whole game through with Hero's and henchmen. The introduction of Hero's has effectively ended the need for teams in all parts of the games.

Where once we had strong teams who worked together, where once we had guilds who played together now we have single or double players getting by with NPC AI. In my opinion all the "upgrades" we've received have only served to take the focus from where it belongs and fragment the energy and directions on whole.

Fixing PvP requires fixing everything. People who say seperate PvP from PvE fail to realize that isolating the two only serves to sever the link whereby people cross over from PvE (which is the majority of players) to PvP. The way to fix it is to simplify, remove all the extra add on's we've received, remove the hero's from everywhere to encourage team play again, remove all the doubled up skills, and find a way to shorten the complicated, expanisve mess that is PvE. Return to the natural progression from PvE to PvP with the focus being on competitive team play again.

With that being said I dont believe the game and primarily PvP can be fixed with the game as it stands now. Arena Net already admitted to making a mistake with the bloated PvE sections which take time away from the guilds that were doing PvP and PvE. Thus the creation of GW2 as they realize the balance that once existed between PvE and PvP cannot be restored. Even if we stopped with new skills etc. it would take a long time of tweaking skills to bring the balance back to the skills and proffessions. I am anxiously awaiting GW2 to see if they can once again create a simple streamlined game where the focus is on strategy and teamwork rather than expanisive, extensive distractions.

Anyway thats it and I know I wrote a lot so forgive me but I decided to let it out.

Darkobra · Sep 11, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorondor Port

I still enjoy hall of heroes.
Although I liked when pvp determined when the pves could get into uw and fow.

heres my opinions and why I like pvp more

Pve = hench and heroes (always) for me. Its boring to play with no real humans, but they all seem to suck when you do party with them.

Wait thats it.
Am I claiming pvers are all noobs?

....yea basically.
Congrats with your cartograph titles and the liking.

Your frenzy warrior pwns PVErs long time. FEAR THE FRENZY! Then again, I can see why people like you would prefer warriors. Anyway, good luck with waiting for your team to res you and empathy owns you.

Redfeather1975 · Sep 11, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

*runs by really, really fast*

PVP needs more romance!

C2K · Sep 11, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

I think PvP is dying because the lack of creativity is far gone. One thing I remember from watching high ranked teams battle it out was the creativity and ingenuity that went into the builds. People are playing the same builds and not thinking of the counter them. However, the team builders are not solely responsible for the lack of creativity.

Skill balance does play a big role. Some skills can make builds that are too good not to add on your team. Look at the LoD/Infuser monk. This build is so vital to a team, every team pracitically needs one. It helps against degen and small AoE with its constant party heal and when the spike comes, its there to save the day. I can't come up with a good replacememnt for this build. Another build is "Blockagon". The blockagon gives you defense that can't be stripped, used against you, manipulated etc. It provides the best non-healing defense in the game to the entire party!!! Side it with a complimentary B-Surge/Warder, well now you can shutdown most melee dps coming at your team. This is just a few of the most common builds seen in pvp. Some of these skills really need to be looked at, or perhaps some of their counters need to be examined. Either way, it seems Anet has made a few skills that work so well they just scream "I'm the only build you will ever need".

IMO, titles are bad for PvP. It kills the creative process as well. Instead of people trying to calculate and create a way to make an effective team, PvP has become "Use this build to farm points for my title because it works". Then others start to complain that every uses Build X, and instead of looking for weaknesses in Build X, they just decide to play Build X too. So its a vicious cycle and it exists because the grind for titles exist. And trust me, its not going to get better. HoM is going to keep it around for a while.

In regards to VoD for GvG, I agree that VoD comes way too fast now. It should come later than 18 mins. But there also needs to be more of a dynamic to GvG as well. I watch obs mode now and then, and I admit that I walk away and do something else until it gets close to VoD. Thats when some of the matches get exciting because a team actually has to give up the center of the map and try something new. There needs to be more viable strategy in GvG as well.

A suggestion. Perhaps for ATS(Maybe the monthly tournaments), what if special GvG maps were made that only circulate in ATS? I know that certain builds are used for certain Guild hall maps because some of these maps are exploitable. An unknown map could test the skills of the two teams and could make for an exciting match.

Anyway, thats my two cents. And while many believe PvP may be long gone, I wouldn't mind if it could just get the defibilator used on it a few times before its canned

Longasc · Sep 11, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

Anet killed PvP by merging it with PvE. A mistake that cost them big time, but needless to say one that they claim will not be repeated in there next release, Guild Wars 2.

IMO, PvP sucks because it is TOO competitive, teams are out there more to win by any means possible, that is not for me, but maybe for the players of PvP, so I stick to PvE.

All I ask is that Anet seperate PvP from PvE like they plan to in GW 2, then update PvP to make it more balance with out effecting PvE.

Do they really want to make GW2 so different from GW1? I think they should be honest to themselves and their players and make GW2 a PvE game or a PvP game.

We have a game with two totally different game modes, PvP and PvE, that share the same set of skills. That is the core of the problem. One side always gets neglected for the other.

They neglected new PvP content... totally. GW:EN has nothing new for PvP. They added nothing more than what would I consider the basics, skills balances. Alliance Battles and Hero Battles were the new PvP modes that were somehow a lure to draw people into PvP - which is basically GvG and HoH, which got nothing but changes to VoD and now the unloved automated tournaments.

ANet should consider making GW2 a PvE or a PvP game. So far both game modes suffer because of the other one, and none gets enough to shine. Right now they are massively leaning towards PvE. OK, I am a PvE player, but I think I can dare to say it amazes me how ANet did not do a hell of a lot for the PvP of a game that was marketed as a competitive PvP game.

Ado · Sep 11, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Appart from all the inbalances bla bla bla, the main reason why pvp is dead are we, the players.

People here already mentioned the lack of creativity amongst players. That's one thing, there's a also a lack amongst players for the need of challange.

IMO, cookiecutterbuilds can't be avoided, they exist virtually everywhere. But it's our choice wheater we play them or not.
For example, when I started to play HA I started out as a war in iway (at the time when it was 6 wars and 2 necs). After getting to know the maps a little and other builds which were around I thought, let's try something else. After trying lots of stuff I eventually ended up playing as a monk in balanced. For me personally it was the most challanging thing to play, and that was what I was looking for.

There's nothing wrong with playing a fotm-build to get to know the basics of pvp. Heck, even if you're a hardcore balanced player there's nothing wrong with it if you wanna have a quick game without worrying about gametactics too much. My guild ran balanced most of the time or we were trying out new stuff. But every once in a while we played some iway just to have some facesmashing fun. But sticking to the same (easy) build over and over again without ever wanting to try something new and increase the difficulty of what you're playing, personally that goes beyond my comprehension.

Why we ask Anet all the time to nerf something, when we players have the power to balance pvp ourselves? If we want to bring pvp back to life, we players have to decide to leave those fotm-builds for what they are and get everything out of pvp what it has to offer.

On the other hand, I'm not from another planet. Of course I know that where there's an exploit, players will take advantage out of it. But again, do we wanna exploit a build simply cause it's easy fame, or do we wanna have a challanging game-envoirment?

Vanquisher · Sep 11, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

Your frenzy warrior pwns PVErs long time. FEAR THE FRENZY! Then again, I can see why people like you would prefer warriors. Anyway, good luck with waiting for your team to res you and empathy owns you.

Frenzy is the best IAS in the game.
Here's the difference between us - you think Empathy owns a Warrior. I think that Empathy only slightly annoys a Warrior.

"Hey, Empathy on 1 please remove."
"Okay"
Warrior continues to attack.

OR!

"Hey, Empathy on 1, gimme SoA or SHands."
"Okay"
Warrior continues to attack

OR!

"K, Empathy on 1 and you're terrible at removal so I'm not gonna attack until it's removed/off."
"Okay"
Nukers continue to dominate insanely retarded mob AI while Warrior just stands there.

Productivity · Sep 11, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

No PVE players with brains in head would ever mind UAX for PvPers.

It's like .... you would have ot be extra stupid to think that devalues your achievements or something.

You've just described a significant proportion of the PVE playerbase.

Engel the Fallen · Sep 11, 2007, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Too late IMO to get the old guilds back so PvP would need major changes, which will not happen till at least GW2. Even then with Fury seemingly giving people all they wanted from GW and more, there is not much incentive to return.

Two ideas have been repeated over and over again and ignored. The first is sealed deck play. No buildway here, and it will really test players to use skills they normally never use or would never use in the way they need to.

The second idea is a template mode with a very limited skill selection and restriction on number of characters you can have in a party. If set up right and balanced often, this would create a style of GvG that would be pure balance. Any overpowered skills can just be removed from the pool. To prevent stagnation, the skills in the pool can be changed up every so often.

But with everyone considered about GW2 now, and the skill balances occuring about every 6 months, hard to really have hopes up. PvP got nothing with Gwen, so for a year at least if the GW split team stuff was true, no one did anything for PvP really except random experiments and 2 sets of skill tweaks basically.

Vanquisher · Sep 11, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

The only way to get good Guilds coming back is more tournaments like GWWC.

Sealed Deck play from ArenaNet doesn't give both teams the same selection of skills, so it is often down to Build also.

Sarevok Thordin · Sep 11, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Sealed Decks in ATs (With knowledge beforehand of which campaigns are required)
GWWC
Selling customised consumables in the Online Store (Fundage)
Retweak cookie cutter builds such as an LoD monk and Shock Warriors (Change shock's KD to Interrupt, remove exhaustion) so we don't look at a class combo and know almost exactly what to expect.
Do something about the champion title's minimum rating.
Remove ability to view skills being used in observer mode.

And that is what I came up with while making breakfast, now to continue waking up.

SotiCoto · Sep 11, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Replace all forms of current PvP with gimmick event and "minigame" PvP.... stuff like Wintersday Snowball fights... Dwarven Punchout tournament... Rollerbeetle Racing and Polymock...

That'll keep them amused for a while and stop them messing with our skills too.